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Thursday, October 27, 2011

Theeve Trucks Review: Part 5

UPDATE, 1 Feb 2015: In response to a comment to this post, I measured 52 different truck axle diameters and found that Theeve TiAX V2 truck axles were indeed smaller, consistent with the commenter's observations. See the chart below:
alpha = .05 | confidence = .0198 | median = 7.9 | mean = 7.885 | standard deviation = .07035

The Theeve TiAX V2 axle diameter measurements fell below 1 standard deviation from the mean. That's enough to notice a difference. The skater commented that the wheels rattle excessively on Theeve trucks but not Thunder or Venture trucks. These measurements show that the skater wasn't imagining it.
Theeve seemed to have fixed it with the V3, though. Theeve TiAX V3 axles fell above 1 standard deviation, but they're not alone, sharing the upper range with Bear Polar Bear trucks and Surf Rodz TKP trucks - good company. The absolute upper control limit is the inner diameter of skateboard bearings - about 8 mm - and none of the trucks were above that. Another interesting observation from the data is the wide dispersion of measurements for the old school Gullwing trucks.
/UPDATE

Original Post:

Part 5. Theeve trucks are awesome trucks, but they suffer from a bushing problem with the stock Bones medium bushings. The bottom bushing bulges and eventually pops out. The bulging isn't so bad, but the popping out part is what makes your trucks suddenly squirrely. Imagine going for that 12 foot high tile carve in your local pool and suddenly your bushings blow and your board gets all wobbly under your feet. Not a good scenario. Many skaters have tried many things to resolve this problem: adding a bottom washer, reversing the bushings, replacing the bushings with Indy bushings, rotating the bushings.
I tried a flat bottom washer.

I tried a cupped bottom washer. Bottom washers with Bones Bushings actually made the problem worse, hastening the popping out. Not to mention they ruined the turning.

I tried all of those resolutions, too. My interim finding was that I was having great success with Independent Genuine Parts standard red 90a bushings and no bottom washer. But I talked to Theeve a bit about the problem, found out the background (sorry, it's classified) for the problem, and I agreed to try some scenarios to see if I could get the trucks to work with the stock Bones bushings. (Theeve, by the way, has been very supportive to me and their other customers with regards to quality control and handling warranty claims on their trucks. Bravo, Theeve.)



So, I grabbed a few sets of new Bones hardcore medium bushings and went to work. Just to be sure, I mixed up the black versus white Bones bushings (the material color, not the cores) - results were identical regardless of material color. First, I baselined my 5.85 Theeve TiKING trucks with new Bones hardcore bushings.  Sure enough, after a week of skating, the bushings popped out while I was riding. I decided that instead of trying to resolve the bushing problem, I would look at other parts of the trucks. I replaced the top cupped washer with a flat washer, mounted new Bones bushings, but the problem remained. Plus the turning wasn't that great with that set up. With the 3rd new set of Bones bushings mounted, I replaced the stock pivot cup with a Khiro soft small pivot cup. These pivot cups are different than the Theeve pivot cups. Khiro calls pivot cups "pivot bushings", but to avoid confusion in this post between pivot bushings and kingpin bushings, I will call them "pivot cups".
On top, the Theeve stock pivot cup, slightly mauled from removal. On the bottom, a Khiro soft small pivot cup. Notice the squared off inside of the Theeve pivot cup and compare it to the smooth, rounded off inside of the Khiro pivot cup.
The stock Theeve pivot cup is about the same durometer (hardness) as the Khiro soft small pivot cup. They are the same size on the outside, and fit the same in the truck's pivot cavity. The two major differences, though, are in the shape of the interior and the depth of the interior. The inside of the pivot cup, where the truck's pivot sits, is squared off in the Theeve pivot cup. Have you ever stood on your board with Theeve trucks mounted and pivoted the trucks and heard the little popping sound as you pivoted? That's from the squared off inside of the pivot cup. The Khiro pivot cups, on the other hand, have a rounded off inside of the pivot cup. When the trucks are mounted back up, there is no popping from the pivot cups at all, and turns are smoother and more progressive. The other primary difference in the pivot cups is the depth. One of the reasons I settled on the Khiro pivot cups is that they are slightly shallower in depth than the Theeve pivot cups as measured by my trusty micrometer. I chose a shallower cup because of the observation that the bottom bushing on Theeve trucks bulges forward, toward the middle of the board, and pops out at the same place. The hanger just seemed to be sitting too deeply in the pivot cup. The Theeve pivot cup is just over 11mm deep, while the Khiro pivot cup is just under 10mm deep.

Theeve truck with stock Theeve pivot cup. Note how the kingpin sits toward the front of the yoke, like the hanger sits too deep in the pivot cup. Easy to see how the bottom bushing pops out.

This 1.2 mm difference was just enough, though.
Theeve truck with Khiro soft small pivot cup. This time, notice how the kingpin sits more toward the back of the yoke, giving more yoke to rein in the bottom bushing.

Let's go skating.

Theeve trucks with stock Bones bushings and Khiro hard small pivot cups. Bulging, but no popping.

Theeve trucks with stock Bones bushings and Khiro hard small pivot cups. Bulging, but no popping. This is the rear truck, which takes far more abuse.

After a week of use, the new Bones bushings had bulged on both trucks, but hadn't popped. After 3 weeks of skating, the bushings, with no rotation or other maintenance, were still bulged but hadn't popped. Big drops, deep carves, pools, powerslides, I did it all. No bushing popping. Bulging, yes, but the Bones bushings on my Ventures bulge, too, toward the back, but they don't pop.
For comparison, Venture V5 5.2 low trucks with Bones medium bushings. Bulging, but no popping. Awesome turning, well, for Ventures, anyway. Rear truck.

For comparison, Venture V5 5.2 low trucks with Bones medium bushings. Bulging, but no popping. This is my front truck.
After 5 weeks of skating the Theeves with this set up, the Bones bushings have not popped out. I noticed that the hangers had settled in to the pivot cups a bit, so I replaced the pivot cups with the Khiro hard small pivot cups just in case. After 2 weeks with that setup, I noticed less bulging than before, even though they were the same bushings I'd had for 7 weeks of skating, and, once again, no popping out. Best still, the kingpins were now centered in the yoke, like they're supposed to be.
Theeve trucks with stock bushings and Khiro hard small pivot cups. After 2 weeks of skating, the kingpins are now centered in the yokes, like they're supposed to be.
What's more, even though the bushings bulged, the performance of the trucks had never been better. Turns are now smooth and silent, and better than stock. There isn't that clicking and resetting from the stock pivot cups. The overall balance of the set up is much better, and the Bones bushings look like they'll now go the distance.
So, that's it. Theeve, take note: you need a new pivot cup design. I would go even shallower than 10mm, like 9.5mm, and I would make sure it was a hard durometer. When you get around to the V3 mid, I recommend a thicker yoke toward the front with a larger lip over the bottom washer. If you want to completely redesign the geometry, increase the distance on the hanger between the pivot point and the center of the yoke. Or, for a quick win, you can drill the pivot cup cavity about 1-1.5mm closer to the center of the baseplate. Get to work!
In the meantime, Khiro bushings are available at many fine skateshops as well as Amazon.
Readers, thanks for your patience. I still have more Theeve reviews coming up: the TiH and the new Theeve Lows are on the way for testing. Also, I'll be looking at some of Antics, Intls' (Theeve's parent company) other products as well.

51 comments:

  1. I really enjoyed and appreciated your blog on theeves. I too converted from Indys after feeling how much better they turn and just put up with the bushing wear as the price of great turning trucks. I live on the beach on oahus north shore and surf everyday so finding the perfect surf carving bowl and park trucks has been an ongoing mission for me. Loved 139 and 149 Indys and 55 Aces for my wider decks but loved theeves even more. I will try you suggestions on a worn pair of 8.5"s. (I have 8", 8.25" and several sets of 8.5" theeves. Usually ride 8.5 three fish deckrafters (awesome for park and pool) but lately have been riding Pat Ngohos ZPOP deck which is even better as it sticks to my feet like glue. Not a good deck for flatland ollie tricks of course but insane for transition. One ride and you know this deck was designed around the feet of a hardcore rider who knows exactly how to translate board design into board performance for bowls and pools.

    Anyway, the reason I'm posting is I got some 7.75" axle theeve lows for my nephew and they are sick. Turning is unbelievable. For such a low narrow truck they carve a perfect arc. I could actually ride his 13 3/4" wheelbase 7.5" deck with these trucks and feel pretty solid. I keep my wheelbases between 14 7/8" to 15 1/4" so that is a big jump down. Don't know if the bulging bushing problem will plague these new lows but they are really, really good.

    One other product I have used lately that is awesome is the vans rowley spv shoes. Straight out of the box they supple and sensitive. Used to love AV3s and AV skate los but these are better.

    Cheers, jeff

    ReplyDelete
  2. Hi,
    I posted a comment about a year ago regarding turning the bushings around to "beat the bulge"
    anyway, a year has past and the bulging had stopped. I noticed that the trucks were feeling gradually looser over time, I didnt mind this as I was enjoying riding the trucks at this level of looseness, however, recently they just went too loose(Daewon rattle style) and on inspection I noticed that my pivot cups were almost non existent, a bit of chewing gum would have offered a better effect. So I thought to myself-" what pivot cups fit and work on these trucks?" I emailed Theeve but got no response, so then I had a look here and luckily enough, only three days beforehand you had posted the Khiro information. I have got a khiro set and fitted one in already, all seems good to start with (only had a quick test session so far). Anyway to sum up- my experience seems to verify and proove that your theory is correct regarding the bushing problem. As my pivot cups wore down to nothing (literally) the bulging problem ceased. I will repost in a few months to confirm that theeve trucks with khiro hard small pivot cups are a winner. I really like these trucks overall, so if this problem can be solved with a minor cup swap then its yee harr! Hopefully all will be good after a few sessions to back your theory, ill let you know anyway!

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  3. Thanks, Russ. Considering your findings, I think that the solution is in the shape of the interior of the pivot cup. If your Theeve stock pivot cups wore down to nearly nothing, that means it probably rounded out inside. Hmm. Thank you in advance for keeping me informed.

    ReplyDelete
  4. jeff said,

    just replaced my pivot cups in my oldest tiax 8.5s with hard small khiros. Mine were just a black smudge on one side. Khiros seems good. A little different. Probably need a day to break in. Only rode mini ramp and cruised around but seems good. I will try the park tomorrow to see how the speed carve feels and see how long the bushings last. Looks promising and I will report back too.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Have you tried Thunder 149's?

    You'd think Theeve would fix this pivot cup issue asap.

    Especially as no retooling necessary just add 9.5mm cups! You already did the R&D.

    I want to but the full titaniums in 8.5" to have a set that lasts for life in parks. But not until the clicking and bushing separation is Resolved.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Yes, I've tried the Thunder 149s. They were smooth on mini ramps and big street, but their geometry felt a bit antiquated. See my review here: http://oldmanskater.blogspot.com/2011/08/review-venture-trucks-thunder-trucks.html

    If you get the full TiH Theeves, no doubt they'll last for life if all you do is park.

    I have actually submitted my full report to Theeve and Antics International. In my day job I am actually a professional researcher at an R&D company. Although my full report to Theeve wasn't the kind of report I would deliver for work, it had all the pertinent details in executive summary format - enough for them to act accordingly to fix these problems. The pivot cups would fix it a little bit for the short term, especially in a recalled product sense for those Theeves already out there. But in my report I also included a long-term fix that would require a slight change in manufacturing specifications: not a change in the dies for casting the trucks, just a change in how they drill them after they come out of the molds. Cheap fix, quick win.
    I haven't yet heard back from Theeve or Antics, Intl. If you want to help me out, email Hayley at Theeve at info@theevetrucks.com, reference my blog, and demand a solution!
    Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  7. Jeff said,

    How about a review of ace trucks? Nothing turns better for loose deep surf carves. I love theeves for their mix of stability of and turning but aces have their places. They are what indies should be and once were.
    Light weight and great in tight bowls and all around use.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I was wondering if you could do a review on the fury evo 2 trucks as looking round the Internet there Is such a divided opinion of them
    On another note, it's nice to have someone on the internet reviewing skateboard goods in a clear concise way, keep at it and keep the dream alive!

    ReplyDelete
  9. I have been trying to get ahold of Theeve regarding an issue with their TiH trucks and they have failed to respond to my email and facebook. You have any tips? How does one make a waranty claim if the company cant be contacted?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Jeff (11/14/11): Aces are on the way for a head-to-head with the newest Stage 10 Independents

    Anon (1/1/12 3:38): Once I get a hold of some Fury Evo 2 trucks, I'll do a full review. Probably won't be until March.

    oudin (1/7/12): Theeve (and many other companies) are always very busy in January-March timeframe with all the new goods that will come out in the Spring. That said, what is the issue? Hayley at info@theevetrucks.com has always been responsive. I have other email addresses I can share with you if I know better the nature of your warranty claim.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Thanks for your help. This was their reply on facebook:

    "If you really want, Email us at info@theevetrucks.com about this HUGE 0.35 ounce difference."

    So I sent them another email. As you can see, the $125 TiH 5.25 truck is notably heavier than advertised. And for a company selling weight-saving hardware and kingpins, .35 oz is infact a huge difference.

    ReplyDelete
  12. oudin,
    That's interesting.
    The TiAX 5.25 is nominally 11 oz (312 grams), but weighed in at 11.8 oz (335 grams).
    Theeve, like most truck companies, weigh the trucks without all the hardware. Which hardware is excluded is anybody's guess. The only company that weighs their trucks as you would skate them - with all hardware - is NHS, distributors for Independent, Krux, and Bullet trucks. NHS' published weights are always the exact same as what I have in my master table of truck weights. I use an approved, tared postage scale to make my measurements.
    Tensor and Theeve are the two worst offenders when it comes to taking off hardware to weight their products. Tensor trucks are 10 grams heavier than nominal for magnesium and 20 grams heavier for aluminum.
    Interesting that the two companies that pride themselves on the lightest trucks are so far off nominal on the assembled products. But understandable, at least in the sense that both of these companies buy their competitors trucks and only weigh that which differs. All kingpin nuts, axle nuts, and speed washers weigh about the same. In the end, it is a like comparison - they do have the lightest trucks in a relative sense - even though the consumer would benefit more from actual weights published on their websites.
    I've always appreciated light trucks but never had any problem pulling the same tricks the same or better with heavier trucks. I actually think light trucks help flip tricks but teach you bad habits when it comes to learning new tricks.
    I guess there's a reason that Independent calls their forged hollow "stupid light"...

    ReplyDelete
  13. For $125 dollars I purchased a product advertised as weighing 277 grams. Had I paid $50, fine. I am not interested in discussing the importance of weight in skateboarding, only the importance of recieving what I ordered and paid a great deal for. If they weigh it without the hardware, then don't ship it with the hardware and feature photos of the truck with the hardware. If I do not receive a solution from Theeve believe me when I say I will do everything I can to blast their reputation.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Okay, oudin, it looks like you have a point to make. As you embark on your journey, remember to clearly and consistently describe your observations, establish and clearly communicate the goal(s) of your struggle, and provide evidence supporting your assertions.

    The Goal(s) part of your struggle is the most important part. Clearly explain what outcome you expect from making your observations. Do you want your money back? Do you want to besmirch Theeve (if this is your goal, be prepared to offer an alternative product and reasons people should switch to that product)? Do you want Theeve to change the advertised weight of their trucks? Clearly explaining what you expect from Theeve and from the marketplace will help people address your concerns in the most efficient manner possible.

    Theeve addressed the bushing bulge problem by adding a bottom washer, so they ARE responsive to critique. Best of luck!

    ReplyDelete
  15. Hi man, I really need you help. Reading your older parts on Theeves, I've decided to trade over stock Bones Hardcore from my 5.5 TiKings for orange aftermarket Indys bushings. They're not bulging , they turn great, but trucks now are making this crackling noises ( I'm not a native speaker so dunno if this is the word to describe it )After my research I know that pivot cups are making this sounds. Lubricating them with bearings lubricate didn't help. I just switched from thunders which were making the same f-ing noise, and I'm really pissed that Theeve are no better. They were ok for the first session, but on the second I heard that awful sounds again. Pivot cups from thunders and aftermarket skateshop brand pivots won't fit well, they ruin geometry, causing bushings won't fit. What can I do to stop this annoying sound? Maybe giving away bones wasn't the best idea...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The sound you're hearing is because the pivot on the hanger is round and the inside of the pivot cup is square. You need Khiro Small pivot cups. I have extras if you want them - email me and we'll work something out.

      Delete
    2. Really aprecciate your help :) This might be the solution. I'd like to do that, but I'm from europe, Poland. Shipping would cost more than this pivot cups themselves. I have round pivot cups, but like I said before, they make the truck hanger sit in different angle, and bushings then doen't have enough place. So only way for me is to search for Khiro pivots here, or another fitting round pivot cup?

      Delete
    3. Like a creaking sound?

      I use some vaseline or lipsyl on my bushings and pivot cups and it completely stops all creaking sounds.

      Delete
  16. Yes, I recommend Khiro pivot bushings because they're a known good fit. Here are some I found in Holland: http://www.sickboards.nl/khiro-pivot-cups-p-517.html
    I'm sure there are skateshops in Poland or Germany that carry them, too. Try to look where people buy longboards. You might want to check this list:
    http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/forum/france-germany-eu/6517-europe-online-skateshops.html

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks!!! :D you've really helped me a lot. One last questions, after I buy this pivot cups should I stick to the indys or come back to bones? When trucks performance is the best ? Is it big difference?

      Delete
    2. My recommendation for Theeve Trucks is to use the Independent aftermarket bushings. They fit the best and you have the same great turning. For best turning, use no bottom washer or a thin, flat bottom washer against the baseplate. You'll need to keep your top washer, the one against the kingpin nut.
      I no longer recommend the Bones Bushings for Theeves - they require too much maintenance.

      Delete
    3. Now I'm using thunders very thin cupped bottom washer and it's great, of course top washer too ;) I wanna say thanks one more time for all the help and awesome reviews on this blog. You've convinced me to buy Theeve and I'm not regretting it. All I can say is that if they will remove all this small issues in v3, Theeve will be for me really the best trucks of all.

      Delete
  17. Hi Bertrand,

    do you recommend the low or standard Indy Aftermarket bushings?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Definitely the Standard size Independent aftermarket bushings. The red ones are soft and take a day to break in but they feel really great in Theeve trucks. The orange ones are medium and are good if you like your trucks tight. The black ones are hard and in Theeve trucks they are so hard that the trucks are extremely tight - I don't recommend the black ones unless you're doing old school freestyle with them or you like trucks that don't lean at all.

      Delete
  18. This is realy helpful. I ride vert and I have 2 boards with Theeve TiH trucks and firm (black) Bones bushings. I've not had the problem with the inserts pushing out but I'd really rather not risk it happening and losing control: I've snapped kingpins and an axle (on old sets of Indys) on vert ramps and it's not pleasant. One of my sets of Theeves clicks and creaks like anything - I've just ordered some new Khiro pivot cups as recommended!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Glad it helps. I haven't seen the same bulging problems with the firm Bones bushings (the black core ones).

      I skated Tracker trucks for a brief period in the 1980s. Kingpin breaks and axle breaks were common. Axle breaks weren't as bad, I could kind of slide out of it. But kingpin breaks happened quietly, and you often didn't find out about your broken kingpin until the next time you caught some air. If you were lucky, you saw your hanger and wheels clunk down on the deck and you had time to kick your board away. I was never that lucky.

      Delete
    2. It's reassuring to know that about the firm bushings - I had a look at mine yesterday and couldn't see any bulging. I've just changed from the 5.25" hanger version of the trucks to the 5.85" version (equivalent to a 149) so I'll see if that makes any difference. I don't know what hardness of bushings Tony Hawk uses, but he seems to trust TiH trucks not to dump him unexpectedly onto his face - unless he was riding them and the bushings popped when he busted his pelvis! I also have a couple of sets of Indy Forged Hollow 149s and the ride is very similar, I find: I don't have to make any mental adjustment in going from one to the other.

      Delete
    3. I think Hawk was riding Fury trucks when he broke his pelvis. Hawk also rides pretty tight trucks, so he's probably using the black core bushings.
      Yeah, the new Indy Stage X Mark II feel exactly like Theeve trucks now. Kinda weird. An NHS rep told me the team riders were putting barrel bottoms on their Mark II trucks because they missed the Indy feel of "turn and set" with no wheelbite. If you mount conical bottom bushings on the Mark II, they feel like Theeves.

      Delete
  19. Hey Bertrand, I was wondering if you've ever had any problems with the hangar actually breaking where the top bushing sits? It seems to happen to me with all of my trucks, but usually towards the end of the truck's life... But I just recently got a pair of the black Theeve TiAXs, the one's you've got. And within 3 weeks, the seat broke, and it pretty much just ruins my bottom bushing. I've contacted Theeve, but they haven't been much help, all they told me to do was ship my trucks back to them to see if it were a manufacturer's defect. But I'm concerned, what if I spend the 12 bucks to ship the truck with the problem out there only to find that they won't do anything about it? What would you do in this situation?

    On a side note, such a helpful review, so thorough. You really know what you're talking about man!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Theeve has always been good on honoring their warranty. You should be good to go.

      I only ever broke a yoke on a pair of magnesium Trackers in the 1980s. This should definitely be a casting issue that's covered by warranty.

      Delete
    2. thanks for the reply man, I got a replacement for it. They said they'd never encountered a problem like it before and sent me a whole sticker pack, but I'm sure they've seen it before. Gonna try your tips on different bushings and pivot cups for the bulging and popping, might even try to do a switch of kingpins (from the normal ones to hollows). Do you have any idea of how to switch the kingpins on these TiAX's?

      Delete
  20. hello Bertrand! awesome blog. very thorough and concise like everyone says!
    ive been considering theeve trucks but read so many varying reviews that im really not sure...would getting the CSX V2 tony hawk 5.25's ,some soft indy bushings, and some khiro small soft pivot bushings eliminate all the problems everyone's talking about? i like my trucks fairly loose and i dont really go as hard as i used to, mostly just cruising. would i be alright? thanks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Roger! Thanks for reading. Your setup is one of my two recommended setups for Theeve trucks. Indy soft bushings with new pivot bushings make Theeves respond very well if you like your trucks loose. On Theeve trucks, use of the bottom washer is optional with the Indy bushings. You'll get a deeper turn without the bottom washers. You'll get more control with the bottom washers. Replacing the pivot bushings will eliminate the clicking and creaking and also help the yoke stay centered on the kingpin for longer.
      The CSX trucks are noticeably heavy. If you're doing mostly cruising, you'll be okay. If you can afford it, though, the TiAX are a lot lighter and feel better. Check Amazon.com - there are usually Theeve TiAX trucks available on there for really great prices. I recently saw a set of 2 Tony Hawk TiAX 5.25s for $34.00 on Amazon. I myself picked up a set of 5.5 TiAXs from Amazon for $34.00.
      Also, some shops are trying to move their V1 Theeves, so shop around and see if you can find bargains for the first generation design. You shouldn't have axle bending problems with the 5.5 and narrower V1 Theeve TiAXs. I have a set of V1 5.5s and a set of V2 5.5s and there are no performance differences between them.
      Good luck, and let us know how it all turns out!

      Delete
    2. Or, check ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/THEEVE-titanium-axle-Trucks-Pair-NEW-/200774605406?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebf195a5e#ht_500wt_1287

      Delete
  21. Hello I recently bought some TIAX v2's I think? They came with hard bones bushings and top and bottom washers and were totally blacked out.

    I immediently swapped out the stock pivot cups for the small, hard Khiro bushings and im only rocking the top washer but there is still a loud clicking, creaking noise? Would anyone recommend me using both top and bottom washers? The creaking seriously is almost too much to handle lol THANKS!!!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Completely black Bones bushings? Interesting! Did you get the trucks new or used? What size are they?

      As for your creaking noise, the Bones bushings creak, too. Sorry! Try swapping the bushings out for Independent aftermarket or Thunder aftermarket. When you put those bushings on, make sure you use the bottom washer, too.

      Delete
    2. Yeah thanks alot for the advice dude! You seriously, are the man BTW lol

      I actually got the trucks off ebay new, someone sent black bushings with the trucks which are the 5.85 size. I noticed it was actually the top washer that was making the loud snapping/cracking noise so now im rocking them just with the bushings alone and the trucks turn smooth and sharp, now I just need to try some of those royals!

      Delete
    3. Ah, okay, I was wondering if Theeve followed my advice to black out the bushings on the darker colored Theeve trucks.
      That's really interesting about the top washer! I wonder if the sound is coming from the cupped sides or from the kingpin interface? I think I shall try putting a flat washer on top on a pair of Theeves and seeing which design feature makes the noise. Thanks for your report!
      The Royal Four 5.5s turn so smoothly. I picked up a set of Royal Four 5.25 lows and it just wasn't the same - they're much more stiff. I think the 5.5s just have more leverage on the bushings. That 1/2" makes a lot of difference on a lever. I currently have my 5.5s mounted on my Bowl/Carve board. They're the best turning 149 trucks I've ever skated. Not by much, mind you, because Theeve 5.85, Ace 44s, Venture 5.8s, and Indy 149 standards turn pretty sweet, too. Just the Royals are just enough better to make a difference. I'm currently mapping the geometry to see why the Royal 5.5s turn so well, and I'm also defining objective measures of "turning" to be able to reliably compare trucks in theory based on geometry.

      Delete
  22. I just got some some theeves a while back and as you already can guess im having the bulging out problem with my bushings.I cant find any Khiro pivot cups anywhere just regular blank pivot cups.Is there anyway you can maybe send me some old khiro pivot cups that you dont want anymore :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sure thing. Send your name and address to rlouisd@gmail.com

      Delete
  23. So to summarize: would you use the khiro soft cups with indy reds? I know you've previously talked up the indy reds as being a good solution but in this article I see the bones bushings used.
    This is definitely the go-to series of posts for fixing this problem so much appreciated.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This article shows Bones bushings to illustrate the popping in Theeve trucks versus none in other trucks (in this case, Venture lows).

      If you are under 160 pounds or you ride really loose trucks, put the Khiro soft pivot cups in. If over 160 or you ride medium to tight trucks, then the Khiro hard pivot cups. For Theeve trucks and most trucks, the size of the pivot cup is considered by Khiro to be size small.

      The Indy aftermarket reds are still one of my favorite solutions. The oranges and blacks work well, too. A lot of skaters are getting a set of Bones hard bushings to use as bottom bushings with Bones medium (Theeve stock) on top. That seems to work decently enough, too. The ultimate solution, if you want to stick with Theeve stock Bones Medium bushings, is to wait until the TiAX, TiKING, and CSX trucks come out with the deeper bushing seats and bottom washers.

      Delete
  24. Hi Bertrand,

    Thanks so much for your reply. I have yet to receive a response from Theeve so that kinda stinks. I have brand new pairs of 7.75s and 8.25 raw v1 Tiax's that I bought a year ago and was just about to use them (was looking into new theeves when I stumbled upon the bushing info I will have when I start using them un-modded).

    Do you have a recommended site to order the bushings? I found khiro's on amazon --- are they the large size hard (I'm 180lb)? And I will definitely get the Indy reds.
    I remember my friend had grind kings back in the day and they had a great soft feel to them when they were broken in. What happened to them btw.

    Thanks again!

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  25. Just saw the cup size commment. Thanks again.

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  26. How do the TiKing V2 compare to the first model?

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    Replies
    1. Not very different, really, just the hanger design.

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  27. Hey Guy's, great article. I 've had the same problem too. I'm probably going to just buy some V3 TiKings. Why? Well, hopefully you guys can help. I really dig theeve's, the weight, the turning! etc BUT, I hate the diameter of the axle seems to be much smaller than my thunders, venture's etc , so the torsional play is crazy loose! It makes the board sound mega loud, a little unstable, and sometimes I like to tighten my bolts so there's no wheel/bearing play( or just a little). But as soon as you loosen the axle bolts the wheels/bearing rattle like crazy!! So annoying! I haven't yet measured the difference with dial calipers of the diameters between the trucks, but it is obvious the theeves are thinner. Any insight to this? Have V3 rectified this, or am I just unlucky. Cheers, Guy.

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    1. V3 axles are the same as V2 axles. I've also found that Theeve axles are longer on each side by 1 washer, i.e., using 3 washers instead of 2 to bring the axle nut flush with the end instead of having threads showing past the axle nut.
      The titanium construction also makes the board sound a lot louder than with aluminium trucks.
      If you use spacers, you can tighten your wheels snug, but I've found that it doesn't help much with the noise.

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    2. You weren't imagining the axle difference. I measured 52 different truck axle diameters and found that Theeve TiAX V2 truck axles were smaller. The Theeve TiAX V2 axle diameter measurements fell below 1 standard deviation from the mean.
      Theeve TiAX V3 axles fall above 1 standard deviation, but they're not alone, sharing the upper range with Bear Polar Bear trucks and Surf Rodz TKP trucks - good company. I've edited the post above with the control chart of the measurements.

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  28. Hey mate, wow, great job!! I knew the axle was small and you certainly confirmed that! It's funny, some people like their boards to be loud, taking shields out of bearings etc, but I like my set up smooth and quiet as possible. I'm getting old for sure! In regards to the Theeves, I gonna check out the V3 TiKings. Again, thanks. Guy.

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